Smart Building with Climate Goals – WAGO’s Practical Approach

Hello, dear friends of IoT. Today, we’re talking about a building that symbolizes the transformation happening in the industry thanks to IoT – a shift away from fossil fuels toward a smart, connected logistics facility. What exactly is behind it? You’ll find out today, as always, straight from real-world practice.
To talk about it, I’ve invited WAGO to the show. In their new construction project in Sondershausen, Thuringia, they demonstrate how early-stage planning, IoT technologies, and a strong project team can create a true model for the industry.
Why is this project so special? That’s what we’re about to explore.
Joining me are: Achim Zerbst, Energy Manager at WAGO, who is in charge of the project in Sondershausen. And Jannis Held, Industry & Strategic Account Manager for Energy and Factory at WAGO. He’s here to share the market and customer perspective.
We’ll discuss challenges, lessons learned, and practical approaches – for anyone working on energy systems, digitalization in buildings, logistics, production, or ESG requirements. Or if you’re simply interested in new IoT use cases.
All info about this and similar projects can be found at www.iotusecase.com – and in the show notes.
With that, I’d say: Let’s head into the podcast studio – let’s go!

Welcome to the show! Hello Achim, hello Jannis. Jannis, where are you joining us from today?

Jannis

Hi Madeleine. I’m actually at our headquarters right now, in a meeting room we reserved especially for the podcast – here in beautiful East Westphalia. Our HQ is in Minden, right by the Mittelland Canal.

Then greetings to the region – and of course to everyone listening in.
Achim, where are you right now? Are you two in the same room?

Achim

No, we’re in two different meeting rooms on the same floor. A colleague from marketing is walking around filming us. It’s exciting to see how everything’s coming together here.

Very cool!
So if you’re listening to this podcast, feel free to check out our LinkedIn channel – we’ll be posting some impressions from the recording there.
Let’s start with a quick introduction. Achim, you’re Energy Manager in what I’d call the construction department at WAGO, the Real Estate division. You’re responsible for the building technology and energy concepts, for example in the Sondershausen project.
What I’d like to know: What personally excites you about projects like this? What’s your background, and why do you enjoy this work so much?

Achim

There are many motivations behind it. I’ve been with WAGO for 18 years now. Back then, I helped build up our facility management and construction department and introduced energy management.
As a building systems engineer, I’m of course very interested in energy and energy processes. In our construction department, we act as the interface between production, the users – from both manufacturing and office areas – and the construction companies. We work with external planners, the technical service team in day-to-day operations, IT, and many specialist departments.
In a way, we serve as translators between all these requirements – and that makes the job really exciting.
It’s rewarding to see how you can develop projects over the years, how experiences from previous projects flow into version 2.1 or 2.3, and how the latest technical developments get integrated. We can test current WAGO products, and even those still in development, directly in our projects and provide feedback. That makes this field so interesting.
Especially in the energy sector, I feel a strong sense of responsibility – also thinking about the future and our own children. What can we contribute? How can we make a difference?
Topics like energy efficiency, CO₂ neutrality, or the transformation of the energy supply have grown massively in recent years – and digital processes are helping us more and more in this area.

18 years – that’s impressive!
You obviously bring a lot of experience from a wide range of projects. And that’s exactly what we’ll talk more about today.
To give some context: I think many people know WAGO as a global technology leader in spring pressure connection technology. But you offer much more than just components – you’re now also operating as a full-service IoT solutions provider, with various system packages. We’ll get into the details in a bit.
But first, a quick question for you: Are you involved in this project more from WAGO’s internal user side? So is this an internal project or how would you describe your role exactly?

Achim

That’s right. Internally, I’m responsible for the building technology and energy concept of this construction project – I’ve been involved from the very beginning.
In general, I’m in charge of technical energy and building concepts within our Real Estate division.
Essentially for everything that’s not yet fully anchored in ISO 50001, the classic energy management standard – for example, renewable energy, energy transformation, and supply security.

Okay, and you already mentioned it – we’re talking about the project in Sondershausen, as we said earlier.
Can you give us a quick overview? What exactly is this project about?
What’s the goal?

Achim

WAGO has been active in Sondershausen since 1991.
The plant there has grown steadily over the years, and today more than 1,000 employees work there. It’s one of the largest employers in the region.
Sondershausen now serves as our logistics hub for Europe. That means all products that we, for example, procure for our electrical operations here in Minden, come from that plant.
Our logistics operations are growing continuously – in line with demand and with WAGO’s business growth.
That’s why we built a new logistics center directly across from the existing facility. A small, new plant location that complements the overall setup in a meaningful way.

Let’s talk about what makes this project special.
We’re looking at a nearly energy self-sufficient system – specifically, a logistics center that you are operating, or plan to operate, without fossil fuels.
That’s highly relevant – socially, ecologically, and economically.
Why is that so important to you – personally, and for the team?
What’s the background, and what exactly makes this building stand out?

Achim

For us, it’s first and foremost about taking responsibility and reducing our CO₂ footprint.
We’ve been working on energy efficiency for many years, especially in technical systems and energy management.
When we started planning this project about three years ago, we made a conscious decision to design the building without fossil fuels – especially in terms of the heating system.
Achieving full energy autonomy in the sense of being completely independent from the grid wasn’t our main goal.
We didn’t want to disconnect from the grid entirely – but we did develop a comprehensive energy concept very early in the planning phase.
That concept considered all available renewable energy sources – such as rooftop photovoltaics and even the potential use of wind energy at the site.
These ideas were part of the energy concept right from the start.
That was a huge advantage for us in building technology.
Because once the energy concept is defined, it directly shapes the concept for the technical building systems.
So we had a clear and stable planning foundation from the very beginning.

Very exciting – especially since the building sector is one of the biggest CO₂emitters in Europe.
And with rising and volatile energy prices in the industrial sector, this is obviously also a major economic topic. Let’s dive deeper into the project details in just a moment.
But first, let’s get to know you a bit better, Jannis, to understand your role here. You’re Industry & Strategic Account Manager at WAGO, focusing on Energy and Factory.
You support industrial campuses and customers on their path to greater energy efficiency – using solutions from the WAGO portfolio.
You’ve also worked in various roles within the company.
So here’s a question for you: Why are projects like this especially important right now – for the market and for the customers you work with?

Jannis

Thank you, Madeleine.
That’s a key point for us: We place great importance on only offering our customers solutions that we actually use ourselves.
That’s why I’m especially glad to have a strong colleague like Achim, with whom we can implement these projects together. We test the technologies internally and only bring them to the market once they’re proven. That real-world experience builds trust.
Our customers don’t just get to see PowerPoint presentations, they see actual, working references from practice.
We show what really works and has been successfully implemented.
That also sends a strong message: Solutions like microgrids or microgrid energy management aren’t a luxury or a “nice to have” – they’re a must.
Especially when you think about new types of consumers and generators being integrated behind the grid connection point – that’s where it becomes critical. Everything we talk about in the context of microgrids happens behind the grid connection point – and that’s the area where the customer can take action themselves.

So in other words, everything that’s no longer part of the public grid, but rather inside the customer’s operations? That’s where the customer has responsibility, and not you anymore?

Jannis

Exactly. In the public grid, we – just like any other business – can’t really influence much as end users.
That’s why we look at things like: How do I integrate EV charging stations? How do I connect my PV system?
How do I implement battery storage, and what types of storage are available?
There are also regulatory requirements – especially when it comes to ESG reporting.
All of these are challenges Achim is facing in his project – and they’re exactly the same challenges our customers are dealing with. This site is a real reference for us, and we can clearly demonstrate how things work in practice.

Before we dive deeper into the details of the project, a quick question: From a market or sales perspective, do you actually have any kind of return-on-investment assessment?
I mean, the report by the Federal Environment Agency last year showed, for example, that the building sector is responsible for around 30 percent of CO₂emissions.
In addition, energy prices continue to rise.
Do you have any concrete data or considerations on this from your side?

Jannis

Absolutely. I looked into the recommendations from the German Energy Agency in more detail. They state, for example, that just by implementing an energy management system—not just collecting energy data, but using a real, structured system—companies can save up to 10 percent of their energy costs through organizational measures alone.
That could mean automating the manual switching on and off of machines to avoid peak loads.
Targeted investments can lead to a further 25 percent in savings—for example, by upgrading to more energy-efficient machines.
So overall, we’re talking about potential savings of up to 35 percent.
I also ran a sample calculation: assuming an annual consumption of 35,000 to 250,000 kilowatt-hours for small and medium-sized businesses, up to 62,500 kilowatt-hours could be saved.
At an estimated price of 18 cents per kilowatt-hour, that amounts to more than €11,000 per year. That means you can often achieve ROI within a year, even in smaller companies.
That’s a key point. People often think it’s only the big corporations that need to act—but there’s huge potential for savings in the mid-market as well, often with relatively low investment, depending on the industry and consumption patterns.

Perfect, I’ll include that in the show notes.
If you want to look up the sources and details mentioned here, you’ll find all the references there.

[12:17] Challenges, potentials and status quo – This is what the use case looks like in practice

Let’s now take a look at the project in practice.
Jannis already mentioned it: charging stations, PV systems, batteries.
Achim, over to you—what kinds of processes and trades are involved in this project? And what IoT-relevant devices or types of assets did you connect?
Can you walk us through that in more detail?

Achim

With pleasure. But first, let me quickly comment on what Jannis just said about the savings potential.
I can absolutely confirm that from our experience in practice.
It’s a long-term process—and it’s not about making one investment and saving forever.
You have to stay on it and continuously put in the effort.
Savings don’t come all at once. They accumulate over time, and you have to keep unlocking new ones.
But it’s worth it. Every energy-efficiency measure and every bit of transparency about energy use gives you greater clarity about your processes—both in the building and in production.
For example, if you suddenly detect a spike in energy use, you can trace that back to potential issues in your processes, even before it affects product quality.
That brings an added layer of process reliability.
So it’s not just about saving €10,000 or €11,000—or even more—but also about having better control and stability in your operations.

You already mentioned processes— But what does a typical process look like that actually delivers value in practice?

Achim

For us, everything starts with the core application—and that’s logistics.
I checked with our colleague again: in our logistics operations, we have more than 300,000 individual container locations.
The new building adds another 85,000 container slots plus additional pallet spaces.
Each container holds a certain number of cartons or bags with products that need to be stored, retrieved, or moved with specific speed and priority.
That generates a massive amount of data—making logistics our first IoT asset.
In our case, it’s actually more of an “Intranet of Things,” since everything runs in a separate, secured environment due to data protection reasons.
Around the logistics core, there are many supporting processes: cooling systems, compressed air, building heating and ventilation, safety-critical systems like sprinklers and fire alarms, and the entire building lighting system.
On the electrical side, we also have charging infrastructure—both for employee vehicles and for our internal logistics fleet.

Do you have a specific example from the ventilation system?
I’d love to understand what you used to do before you had connectivity—and what you’re doing differently now.
What exactly do you do with the ventilation setup?

Achim

With pleasure. It’s a bit tricky to compare with the past, because WAGO has been integrating heat recovery into every ventilation unit for decades.
We’ve also always adjusted airflow based on demand—using time-based programs, so it’s been automated for quite a while.
All of our building systems run on our own WAGO controllers, using standard products.
That includes everything from parameterization and programming to visualization.
One good example of increased efficiency is the use of presence detection—not just for lighting, but for volume flow controllers too:
If an area isn’t in use, the air supply there is completely turned off.
Another example is air quality sensors: if an area is hardly being used or has very little air contamination, the air volume can be reduced accordingly.
That leads to major savings—both in terms of electricity and in heating or cooling energy that would otherwise be needed for that area.

Got it. So you’re collecting different data points, and each component brings its own efficiency benefit—which you’re able to analyze and use.
Some of these things you’ve been doing for years, while others are more recent, like air quality sensors or volume flow measurements that help you operate more efficiently.

Achim

We’re not just using the data to improve efficiency—we’re also using it to enhance user experience and process quality.
Anywhere we deliver concentrated air, light, compressed air or other utilities, it’s also about production reliability and quality of use.
All data points are analyzed with that in mind first: Are our employees satisfied?
What individual settings do they need? Which parameters can they adjust themselves in their offices or workspaces?
The technical services team also uses this data to optimize live operations—for both usability and maintenance.
And of course, all of this data flows into our efficiency analysis too.

Were there any specific hurdles you had to overcome as a team?

Achim

Interestingly, the technical challenges weren’t the hardest part.
We had a broad toolbox of products and solutions to draw from—things we’d already used successfully in the past and were able to reuse here.
The real challenge in any project lies in the organization: How do I bring together all the trades, user groups, and departments involved in the process into the construction workflow?
How do we coordinate early on so there’s clarity—about what is being controlled, where it’s being controlled, and when?

That’s a great point. It’s also a recurring theme in our community:
How do you engage employees early and get buy-in for these kinds of projects?
How did you handle that specifically? How do you bring together teams from tech, facility management, and operations so they support the project?

Achim

Absolutely. That’s actually one of the core responsibilities of our Real Estate department.
We don’t just consider ourselves responsible for construction up to the key handover, cutting the ribbon, and calling it done.
We stay involved after move-in, actively supporting operations—for example, through energy management.
We’re continuously involved in ongoing projects, collecting experience and feeding it into future initiatives.
That’s why interaction with the users and their feedback is so important to us.

Involving everyone is a key success factor.
Still, one more technical question: You mentioned that the original site was built in 1991. That’s not ancient, but it’s also not brand new.
Did you run into any issues integrating sensors or older control systems?
For example, was it difficult to add something like an air quality sensor?

Achim

No, not at all.
Even during day-to-day operations in our existing facility, it was absolutely no problem to gradually expand and retrofit these systems.
Our control systems and the entire architecture are modular by design—built exactly for that purpose.

[19:57] Transferability, scaling and next steps – Here’s how you can use this use case

But first, a question for you, Jannis: Do you see similar use cases with other customers as well?
In my world, that would be things like container placement, airflow control, or volume flow measurement.
Are these topics you come across frequently in your customer conversations?

Jannis

Absolutely. These use cases are always industry-specific, depending on what field the customer operates in.
An automotive supplier has different needs than a food producer—or a logistics center like the one we have in Sondershausen.
If I look at the broader market, one use case really stands out right now: the integration of PV systems.
It’s especially ideal for new buildings, where the infrastructure can be designed for future needs from day one.
But we’re also seeing many existing facilities starting with a first PV installation.
Then comes the first battery storage system, followed by more and more EV charging stations—for employee vehicles or entire company fleets.
Take WAGO as an example: Our fleet is now 100% electric.
Those vehicles need to be charged intelligently—ideally right on the employee parking lot, where the car is typically parked for eight hours.
So it can arrive empty and leave fully charged.
This means: We suddenly have large new consumers in the system.
And it’s not just about visualizing data with IoT.
It’s about integrating all those components into a smart energy management system.
That’s one of the core use cases we’re currently implementing with customers.
Because there are many different providers—for storage, for PV, for machines—and everything needs to be connected, coordinated, and controlled.
The goal: reduce costs, avoid peak loads, and manage energy flows efficiently.
The use cases are highly individual—but they’re everywhere.

Where do companies actually lose time and money if they don’t do this properly? Bluntly put—what goes wrong when they try to implement this without your kind of solution?

Jannis

Good question. Due to the complexity, it varies greatly depending on the company, industry, and starting point.
One of our customers had no transparency over their energy data.
Their energy consumption was rising—slowly but steadily.
What went unnoticed: One of their machines was suffering from heavy wear because it hadn’t been maintained. It still delivered the same output but required more and more energy to do so. Without the proper data transparency, no one noticed.
And that’s exactly one of the biggest issues we see today: There’s often a lack of transparency in actual energy usage, especially in complex environments with many new producers and consumers—in what we call the microgrid.
In addition, the components often aren’t connected properly.
For example, a battery should discharge exactly when power is needed for a charging station—especially if a peak load at the grid connection point is imminent.
But that only works if the systems communicate intelligently.
It’s not enough to just install a PV system on the roof, buy a battery, and hope it discharges at the right time. You need load management.
Many companies hesitate here, because they perceive integration and planning efforts as too high. Unfortunately, energy management is still often viewed as a luxury or a side project. But once the first bills from uncontrolled peak loads arrive, the topic quickly becomes a top priority.
And there are additional drivers—like ISO 50001 certifications and ESG reporting requirements.
Not to mention supply security. In critical infrastructures, like hospitals, a well-managed microgrid can be essential to ensure you know when which component needs to be supplied or charged.
In my opinion, supply security is often the most important factor. Companies do lose time and money if they don’t invest in smart energy management systems. But with the right solutions—whether from our modular toolkit or a custom setup—this can be tackled efficiently.

Understood. Achim, one more question for you: What does this look like specifically in your project in Sondershausen?
Have you also calculated a return on investment—either from a technical or financial perspective?

Achim

We have very clear strategic goals. A central one is CO₂ reduction—that’s firmly anchored in our roadmap.
We’ve committed to the Science Based Targets initiative, so whether the ROI happens six months earlier or later isn’t the deciding factor for us.
We think long-term and strategically. Of course, we keep an eye on costs—that’s a given. But here’s what matters: When you build things step by step, you also have to plan step by step.
One example: With our charging infrastructure, we need to ask ourselves: What’s the maximum capacity we might eventually need? What’s realistic?
The same goes for the PV system, production usage, and the building itself: What do I install now? What can be added later? What’s retrofit-ready? And how do I think in terms of system stages?

Jannis

If I may quickly jump in here: Especially from a customer perspective, it’s often hard to calculate the return on investment for a new building. Unlike with existing buildings, you don’t yet know what kind of peak loads you would have had.
Ideally, you’re doing a lot of things right from the start.
With existing buildings, you can clearly see historical energy costs and compare them afterward to measure changes.
That’s harder to do in a new build since there’s no real before-and-after comparison.

Achim

We have the advantage of already having historical energy data thanks to our long-standing energy management system.
We know our internal processes very well and we have comparable sites—also in logistics—in terms of both size and structure.
That allows us to run very specific calculations, even for the new building project.
That’s why, early in the planning phase, we launched an energy simulation together with the University of Applied Sciences in Nordhausen.
We wanted to understand: What makes sense at this specific site? How much can we realistically produce and supply? And as you said, Jannis—having access to historical energy data is a huge help. So here’s my recommendation to everyone: Just get started. You don’t have to measure and analyze everything from day one, but every step counts. Everything you measure today will help you in your next steps.
And something else you said earlier, Jannis, is very important to me: Investing in energy measurement and data quality also improves process quality, operational reliability, and supply security.

And maybe a direct question to our listeners: Are you dealing with similar challenges?
Or are you currently working on projects like these?
Here’s a warm invitation to join our IoT community: Connect with other businesses, share your experiences—and if you’re interested, feel free to connect directly with Achim and Jannis.
I find it fascinating how much know-how you’ve built internally at WAGO and how you’re now applying this experience to other customer projects.
Jannis, maybe I’ll direct this to you: You’re clearly positioning yourselves as a solution provider. What makes you a true system partner for projects like these— and how do you approach them specifically?

Jannis

Yes, that’s a good question.
As you mentioned, much of this is highly individual. At WAGO, we originally started in the field of interconnection technology—everything related to electrical connection systems. Then we moved into interface electronics, and from there we continued developing along the automation pyramid toward the automation layer. The final piece of the puzzle was our Business Unit Solution, which now enables us to offer comprehensive solutions as a modular system.
That means we can supply many of the necessary components ourselves as a system partner, but we’re always careful to remain open to existing systems. That’s especially important, in my view, because an existing building energy management system doesn’t need to be replaced just because we offer a new solution.
We rely on open interfaces, integrate our components purposefully, and aim to consolidate as many functions as possible on a single platform.
In practice, we usually start with energy data acquisition: We examine what data is needed, what is already available, and identify the SEUs—significant energy users.
Then we move to the I/O level. Depending on the requirement, we use different software packages—for example, our intelligent customer transfer station, where we can precisely track which consumption is taking place. Or the modular application package for load management. Let’s say a customer tells us their charging infrastructure is causing load peaks—we can deploy a system that brings together data from the battery storage, the grid connection point, and the building into one controller.
From there, regulation is handled directly at the loads—in this case, the charging stations. That’s often the quickest and simplest way to reduce peak loads: by briefly throttling the charging infrastructure.
If that alone isn’t enough, we use a more comprehensive EMS—a complete microgrid energy management system that can simultaneously control and reduce multiple consumers.
So our solution portfolio ranges from simple sensor integration to cloud solutions, or our WAGO Building Cloud Service for full building management. This modular toolkit allows us to support both very small and very large customers in a tailored way.
What’s particularly important to us is enabling integration and communication with third-party systems like SCADA or components like PV systems and battery storage. As a system partner, our goal is not only to provide cost transparency but also to actively help reduce peak loads and support our customers in meeting their ESG goals—including regulatory requirements.

Yes, a huge topic. So if you’re interested, feel free to connect directly with Jannis on LinkedIn and take a look at what they’re doing. I’ll include links to all the mentioned products in the show notes so you can easily check them out. And Achim, maybe one more question from a practical perspective: How did you manage to technically connect all these different systems? To circle back to the beginning—you have use cases in logistics, volume flow measurements, air quality sensors, charging stations, PV systems, storage units. How do you bring all of that together into a single system? How did you implement it?

Achim

It’s a step-by-step process. In this project, we went from simulation all the way through implementation to ongoing operation. As mentioned earlier, we worked with the university and even supported a master’s thesis on energy flexibility—because we believe that’s one of the key drivers for the future. Our goal is to truly make use of the energy we generate ourselves, for example from solar panels on the roof. We don’t want EVs to be charged when electricity has to be bought at a high price—we want to charge them when we’re generating our own power, to avoid peak loads. We’re on a very good path. The core is energy management—that means capturing energy data and creating performance indicators. That forms the foundation to implement next steps like integrating energy storage or optimizing production processes.

And what does that mean in practice for the end user, the person working within those value streams? The project is still ongoing—but what is the desired outcome in everyday operations?

Achim

Ideally, the end user shouldn’t even notice anything. The car should be reliably charged without being throttled due to a load peak. Production should run smoothly—without interruptions or delays.

Okay, very nice.

Then perhaps one final question for you, Jannis: How flexible are your systems when it comes to the varying needs of your customers?

Jannis

As with many things, it depends—but overall, the flexibility is very high. It really depends on what the customer wants.
Do they want to write their own code? Do they want to use containerized applications or integrate existing systems? Do they want to program the entire solution themselves—which is absolutely possible with our hardware—or would they rather use prebuilt modules from us?
Take, for example, the WAGO Application Package for Load Management I mentioned earlier: Its core functionality is focused on controlling charging stations. But of course, that can be extended.
That’s actually one of the exciting developments for the second half of the year—we’re bringing our various applications onto a shared platform. And this platform will integrate not just our own solutions, but also third-party applications.
That creates a unified view, such as through a process control or SCADA level. So yes, flexibility is very high. And that’s exactly where we want to keep evolving.
On the one hand, we provide ready-to-use applications to make things as simple as possible for our customers. On the other, we know that energy flexibility always involves a certain degree of individualization.
That’s why our guiding principle is: We want to make complex systems as accessible and easy to use as possible. From ready-to-use application modules to full-site visualization at the SCADA level.

Very nice. What is your vision for the coming years?
Achim, first from your internal perspective at WAGO, and then Jannis for your customer-facing perspective Where is the journey heading—technologically, but also strategically?

Achim

What we’re seeing very clearly at WAGO is that user satisfaction and process stability are critical success factors—right alongside energy efficiency and the ability to act economically. CO₂ neutrality plays a major role for us in that.
My wish is that—despite increasing complexity with more data and more systems, just like Jannis said—everything remains manageable and simple. And I’m very confident it will.

Jannis

I can only echo Achim’s optimism. We are continuously developing our solutions. The existing system solutions will be expanded, and as mentioned earlier, there will be an overarching platform in the coming months.
Our clear focus is on microgrid energy management—not as an option, but as a necessity. We need to keep the grids stable and, in the long run, move companies toward grid autonomy.
Even though we’re still a fair way off—especially due to investment costs and storage availability—what’s key is managing these systems intelligently. Energy management is becoming more and more central. In the past, it was all about transparency. Today, it’s about actively creating efficiency.
We’re seeing more and more consumers, but also more generators, leading to greater volatility in the grid. That’s exactly what we want to manage. And that’s where we’re headed.

Then all that’s left for me to say is thank you. Maybe we’ll even do a follow-up episode once the full platform is live and you can show us how you’re building real customer projects on top of it.
For today, thank you for this exciting session, for all the real-world insights and best practices you’ve shared—and especially for showing us how energy efficiency and IoT are put into practice in everyday operations.
The final words are yours. Feel free to close the episode or just say goodbye—whatever you like. Thanks again for joining!

Achim

I can only say thank you as well—we both can. When you’re caught up in the daily grind or a construction project, this kind of podcast really gives you a new perspective on your own work. It lets you reflect and summarize things differently.
It’s genuinely fun. And it was an absolute pleasure with you, Madeleine.

Jannis

I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for the fantastic podcast—and thank you too, Achim, for the great collaboration. You really are one of our best customers. It’s always a pleasure and a real win-win situation for us.

Take care, and enjoy the rest of your week. Bye!

Jannis

Bye

Achim

Bye!